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DBX 2: The Black Rose Reviews and Critiques
#1
[Image: ttNhWMa.jpg]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2: The Black Rose

Click me for the story!
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Hey guys! Welcome to the critique thread on my second installment for the Vegetto Xenoverse series, the Black Rose. When posting a review here, I only ask a few simple rules be followed:

1) Blatant, random cursing will not be tolerated. If you feel the need to vent frustration about a topic presented in the FF, by all means, do it! I'd rather listen to you explain your stance in whatever colorful language that allows you to fully explain your opinion. However, aside from any BC rules that may violate, I personally won't respond to any blatant random cursing that comes off as incoherent dribble. If you want to randomly sling profane words together without a point to it, then you should go somewhere else.

2) Make sure you put what exactly you're reviewing in the very first line of your post. You do not have to follow the template I provide at the bottom, but you do need to make sure it's clear what you're reviewing from the get go. Whether it's the name of the fanfic, the symbolism of a character, or an analysis of a chapter/the story as a whole, I won't respond to anything if I can't understand what you are critiquing exactly.

3) Actual criticism is required. The whole purpose of this forum is to, of course, provide constructive criticism. One of the greatest aspects about criticism is that it is metaphorically comparable to pulling a diamond from a mound of crap: it smells bad and you have to wade through a lot of nasty things, unwanted feelings and emotions about it, but when you find what you're looking for, it's all worth it in the end. There has to be valuable material at the core of whatever point you try to make for it to be legitimate criticism. Otherwise, you're just slinging around crap about this story and your own personal bias on what you do not like/what you do like. So if you intend to support or attack anything in the story, please post a response commenting what exactly it did for you that was uplifting/a problem. No, "I like this character" or "Your story sucks" one line comments, basically.

4) I don't expect this to be a thing here on BC, but as the site grows and with prior experience with the commentators on my story at FF.net, I want to make it clear that this thread will not be used for you to request writing out a story for your ideas. Aside from my own time constraints with this FF and the RP on site, I do not want to try and emulate a person's ideas into a story for them nor do I appreciate someone coming into this story's critique thread and trying to steal attention for their own story. So don't post any requests for me to write you your own story here or anywhere on my profile. After all, the fun of Fanfiction is in writing your own ideas and making them come to life! Also, I will not be taking any requests to include characters into the story, nor will I respond to questions about future plot specifics (IE, will Zamasu and Towa end up dating in this story?!). This does not include morality based ideologies that will need multiple chapters and story development to iron out, so feel free to ask questions about those in regards to the story.

5) Potential spoilers from the plot will, obviously, be included within this thread. The first line of every post should include the topic of criticism, so if you see a post about a chapter you haven't read, don't be upset if you end up reading it when the spoiler warning is there. It's half the reason why I require you to post the topic of criticism as the first line of your critique.

6) I will likely debate any criticisms I feel do not fully answers concerns I have towards the story. Be prepared to defend your stance on certain topics, as it does neither of us any good if you do not fully elaborate on details I call into question if your criticism hits a deep point about the story. If you do not wish to debate, that is fine. Just make it clear in the responding post that you do not wish to argue about the topic in question.

That's it! Feel free to use this template below, and I will be happy to individually respond to each criticism if you call for my response or I need further clarification on how to improve. Thanks guys!

======================

Topic:
Criticism:
"What do you call a Vegeta and a Goku? Vegetto sounds alright." 
[Image: SACYXY9.jpg]
Reply
#2
Before I placed my analysis of your work, I want to emphasize the importance that power levels are such a non-factor here in my criticism. As long you are able to tell a good, compelling and engaging story, then you can literally have Appule putting up a fight against SSJ4 Gogeta, if you hit those points.

Topic: Chapter 9

Without further to do, here are my thoughts on the latest chapters. My biggest criticism on the fanfic as a whole is the execution itself. Nothing bores me to death when a fanfic seemingly had no pacing, a rushed job and little-to-none reasons to even justify the scene, failure to respect the series they basing off of and then some. So far, this chapter proved to be better this time around. You managed to slow down and examined each conflict one can understand what's exactly is going on. However, there are some things I highlighted below that are issues: 

Negatives: 
  • Trunks-Genn relations is weak. To considered Genn a friend over this seems to be far-fetched. Think
  • Trunks-Vegetto conflict seems confusing. Don't know if this was introduced from the previous story that examined their relationship or something that's introduced here. If the latter, you need to expand on that, otherwise, it's exposition dumped onto the reader with no warning or build-up.
  • Vegetto's characterization seems to remind me of Multiverse Vegetto in some point.
  • This is rather nitpicking, but the scene of Vegetto having Goku/Vegeta thoughts is silly; Vegetto was stated to be brought back to life as his own person; he should have his own thoughts and no trace of Goku/Vegeta speaking. I understand this was a symbolic thing, but it still felt weird.
Positives: 
  • The fight was written well-written. Good job.
  • The execution, while questionable, seems to be more consistent and balance. This is better than Chapter 8's execution.
  • Pacing was average. 
Overall score of the chapter: 3/5
Reply
#3
(03-22-2017, 10:46 AM)ShineCero Wrote: Before I placed my analysis of your work, I want to emphasize the importance that power levels are such a non-factor here in my criticism. As long you are able to tell a good, compelling and engaging story, then you can literally have Appule putting up a fight against SSJ4 Gogeta, if you hit those points.

Sounds good, and thanks for the feedback! One little addendum I will put regarding this point, however, is that while I won't get into specifying specific power levels, I will actually have a bit of focusing on making sure power at the core of each character, is respected and plays a crucial role in combat. One of the greatest and immersive mechanics introduced into Dragon Ball was the aspect of characters being measured accordingly, through power levels. However, the villains constantly underestimated their opponents on relying on that surface level analysis, while at the same time, those power levels still provided a solid foundation for how a character could outmatch another or why a villain was so overwhelming (IE, Frieza stating his power level of 1 million in his second form obviously allowed the audience to fully understand just how much of a mountain he would be as a challenge).

With that being said, I feel as if one of Dragon Ball Super's major follies as a story is in the fact that they have taken "power levels" and completely thrown them out the window. Being more interested in producing hyped fights, I feel as if their battles lack the sort of anticipation and build up that came from a time when the story did focus on making sure any sort of result or outcome of a fight was based on logical conclusions about power levels, and the plot devices arising from those characters needing to overcome/falling to certain gaps. A perfect example is in the Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto vs Zamasu fight, where the hype surrounding his return as a character was completely shot down from poor overall fight delivery and lack of any sort of rational reasoning. Almost every fight in the Black Arc represented this sort of delivery, of removing logical reasoning to the fight and creating the hyped situations purely for fan service. Thus, the reason why that arc felt so forgettable in the long term scope of things: Frieza vs Goku was immensely superior not because it lasted for so long, but because the story was focused on the match up of Frieza having a slight edge in raw power at their maximums, but wasting all of his energy at the beginning of the fight. Cell vs Goku was intense because while the two fought evenly, everyone knew that Cell was not using his full power and that made him extensively scarier seeing the main hero Goku having to struggle against that restricted power. Everything is rooted around logical conclusions about powers, so I will be focusing on making sure that fights have a sort of logical sense about them because they require it in order to immerse people. And when it proves to be a problem such as Trunks vs Broly, then do keep in mind that not every fight in this story is meant to be an immersive experience. In fact, some fights are meant to be small little snippets meant to improve the overall expectations of another, which will be addressed below somewhat here:

(03-22-2017, 10:46 AM)ShineCero Wrote: [*]Trunks-Genn relations is weak. To considered Genn a friend over this seems to be far-fetched. Think
[*]Trunks-Vegetto conflict seems confusing. Don't know if this was introduced from the previous story that examined their relationship or something that's introduced here. If the latter, you need to expand on that, otherwise, it's exposition dumped onto the reader with no warning or build-up.
[*]


Starting with the first point on its own, the only thing I do want to question specifically is that the "friend" portion of this critique is denying the relationship being established. Albeit, the intention is not to solidify that they are "best friends" or deep philosophical connections to one another, but I feel as if the last two chapters combined should have made it reasonably fair to assume that Trunks and Genn do share a friendship, regardless of how surface level/deep it is.

However, I'm assuming the real criticism surrounding this is more on the notion of Trunks stepping up in defense of Genn purely on their friendship clause, which would indeed be a problem. This portion of the story is real time based, so I wanted to use more imagery and overall escalation of argument to answer this point, where in simple terms: Trunks isn't purely fighting Vegetto on the notion that he wants to defend Genn. In fact, he is shown to be indecisive more than anything in his confusion at the damning revelation of Genn being a rapist and murderer, where even though he believes in Genn, he is calling for Vegetto to only stand down so they can examine the whole story before making a judgement to clearly indicate his stance on the matter is not solid. The only reason he actually stands against him in the fight is because Vegetto directly insults him, not only calling him an insubordinate brat but treating him like an inferior.

That is the main motivation behind his fighting, which I had planned to exposition more in the following chapter when Trunks is recovering in the hospital and recounting the fight to interested parties (aka, Kassava Tongue). The first story does, indeed, set up a little exposition for it, but this overall motivation between the two for fighting is relatively new. One of the main aspects of this story originally was going to surround the Vegetto vs Trunks philosophy, where Trunks having his timeline being ignored by Vegetto's need to improve and find a challenge was going to be the major conflict on the hero side of the story. However, given both of their warrior and developed personalities of being able to control themselves, I personally felt a hard time coming up with a way to build up this story to the point where their fight would've been deeply connecting to the audience because I don't see either of them realistically reaching a boiling point that would resonate with the audience at the climax. Even the fight itself, I felt it was more respectful to the characters to show that even when they reached a tipping point, their emotions were still somewhat repressed and neither one of them fully snapped at the other.

So, with their fight lacking in that sort of emotional turmoil from a character truly breaking down and exploding on another in dialogue, I believed it would be better suited that this fight be more of a minor issue within the Patrol, where it would be a development of character relations between the Patrol but not one of the major, deeply emotional connections the audience makes towards them. As in the end, Trunks would still recognize the need Vegetto has towards his ego needing to be checked, but still be upset over his timeline being constantly ignored throughout the time between the first and this story. Causing the issue: Trunks doesn't actually believe Vegetto is trying to belittle him, but the overall introduction of Kassava into the Patrol because he failed in giving Vegetto a challenge and Vegetto ignoring his request to stand down in regards to Genn make him have the overall "feeling" of being treated as an inferior, even though logically, he knows that Vegetto does care and is just doing what he feels he needs to get done. However, in the moment of Vegetto's weakness in his pride getting the better of him and blatantly insulting Trunks, the overall negative feelings Trunks had finally have a solid voice to back them, and that's why the two fight even though both parties knew from the start that it was wrong. Most of the major points above are established quite clearly in the chapter, but while lacking the overall depth to them some other stories focus on, I think the big problem you're referring to was in the lack of including the major clause of "Trunks acting on more complicated reason" because the exposition is coming at a later point in the story.  

In any case, I would enjoy hearing disagreement on that execution or even overall different opinions on how you would've written out to respect both characters. But even so, these two points do give me the understanding of the importance that I follow through in making sure Trunks' motivations are made quite clear when he next presents the fight as a talking point in the following chapter that presents it.

(03-22-2017, 10:46 AM)ShineCero Wrote: [*]Vegetto's characterization seems to remind me of Multiverse Vegetto in some point.
[*][*]


That's because it actually does follow a similar path Multiverse is taking him. The overall situation of Vegetto being unquestionably superior to every other being in the universe creates the dilemma of fulfilling a challenge clause in his motivations, where he obviously lacks an opponent that gives him that sort of rush. Dragon Ball Super is also exploring this with Goku in the new arc, where one of the only character agreements I have is in his overwhelming desire to fight strong opponents getting the better of him at times and putting something at risk because of it.

Vegetto, being naturally susceptible to that same drive, then has the complexity of Vegeta's character added into the mix, where not only should their fusion naturally seek a challenge, but also seek to prove himself in the eyes of a stronger force, which drove Vegeta immensely to the point where he recognizes it as his greatest character asset. However, this is also unanswered: if he doesn't have a strong enough opponent to challenge him, then he also doesn't have a stronger opponent he can seek to prove himself against. Creating an even larger conflict in terms of motivation, and without an answer, he starts to become agitated.

Multiverse has written him out to the point where he is shown breaking down mentally over it, only recovering after small tantrums over humiliating ego points such as being easily defeated by a magician using a perceived "cheap" magic trick. My rendition will have similarities, but the main difference will be in that Multiverse Vegetto strives to not only fight all of the strongest fighters, but dominate them as well (I'm expecting him to be the villain because he snaps after having to sit through so many matches as a spectator). While this Vegetto will still maintain his extensive discipline as a warrior, yet also understand that he needs that humiliating loss for himself so that he doesn't fall victim to believing himself invincible. The notion of questioning, "Well, why doesn't he just go and get Whis/Beerus to slap him down?", is then answered in the chapter when Vegetto explains his need for a fighter to consistently give him that development, because he needs a method of developing not an objective (Think of how Goku and Vegeta see Whis and Beerus as objectives to beat, not actual rivals or characters meant to consistently develop them to achieve that objective.)

I won't explain anymore, as that would spoil important plot points to his character, but yes, he should remind you a bit of Multiverse's take on him. Just, a little bit of a different direction and not so extreme in the portrayal of his character conflicts.

(03-22-2017, 10:46 AM)ShineCero Wrote: [*]This is rather nitpicking, but the scene of Vegetto having Goku/Vegeta thoughts is silly; Vegetto was stated to be brought back to life as his own person; he should have his own thoughts and no trace of Goku/Vegeta speaking. I understand this was a symbolic thing, but it still felt weird.
[*][*][*]

Personally, I felt it was actually good character symbolism because when it comes to spoken words in your mind, they sometimes naturally have a tendency to follow a voice that you would expect to hear them from. IE, if you are thinking about criticism that sounds like something your mom would say, you sometimes hear her voice as the one speaking the words in your head when you actually recount the words. Where everyone's had some degree or point in time where a voice in their mind wasn't from their choice.

This is then in Vegetto, who also keep in mind, is fresh off from the first story in where he only just overcame the issue of his identity crisis surrounding the ideology that he is nothing more than a shell created by those two. So the symbolism is meant to show that a little bit as well, in the fact that he still would subconsciously think "That sounds like something Goku/Vegeta would say", instead of fully embracing it as his own personal thoughts. A small little character point, one that I was planning to exposition out a little more at a point in time where Vegetto has the chance to reflect on this conflict a little better at a different point in the story.

This was a little better received from readers who had the same understanding because they read the first story, so if you want to criticize that connection, I would suggest and seeing to whether or not this sort of connection delivers. But in regards to nitpicking, I actually don't think that's a fair term. I can definitely see how you can feel out of place without that connection, so exposition at a later time will help readers who are jumping head first into this story for sure.

(03-22-2017, 10:46 AM)ShineCero Wrote: Positives: 
  • The fight was written well-written. Good job.
  • The execution, while questionable, seems to be more consistent and balance. This is better than Chapter 8's execution.
  • Pacing was average. 
Overall score of the chapter: 3/5
[*][*][*]

I would like a little more explanation for these points though, especially the Pacing point. However, I feel as if they might be addressed a little better after the response up there. Thanks again for your feedback, let me know what your thoughts are in response to the points above! Smile
"What do you call a Vegeta and a Goku? Vegetto sounds alright." 
[Image: SACYXY9.jpg]
Reply
#4
Looks like you're enjoying this section! You're giving me a lot to read, boy! Pls

Quote:Sounds good, and thanks for the feedback! One little addendum I will put regarding this point, however, is that while I won't get into specifying specific power levels, I will actually have a bit of focusing on making sure power at the core of each character, is respected and plays a crucial role in combat. One of the greatest and immersive mechanics introduced into Dragon Ball was the aspect of characters being measured accordingly, through power levels. However, the villains constantly underestimated their opponents on relying on that surface level analysis, while at the same time, those power levels still provided a solid foundation for how a character could outmatch another or why a villain was so overwhelming (IE, Frieza stating his power level of 1 million in his second form obviously allowed the audience to fully understand just how much of a mountain he would be as a challenge).

With that being said, I feel as if one of Dragon Ball Super's major follies as a story is in the fact that they have taken "power levels" and completely thrown them out the window. Being more interested in producing hyped fights, I feel as if their battles lack the sort of anticipation and build up that came from a time when the story did focus on making sure any sort of result or outcome of a fight was based on logical conclusions about power levels, and the plot devices arising from those characters needing to overcome/falling to certain gaps. A perfect example is in the Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto vs Zamasu fight, where the hype surrounding his return as a character was completely shot down from poor overall fight delivery and lack of any sort of rational reasoning. Almost every fight in the Black Arc represented this sort of delivery, of removing logical reasoning to the fight and creating the hyped situations purely for fan service. Thus, the reason why that arc felt so forgettable in the long term scope of things: Frieza vs Goku was immensely superior not because it lasted for so long, but because the story was focused on the match up of Frieza having a slight edge in raw power at their maximums, but wasting all of his energy at the beginning of the fight. Cell vs Goku was intense because while the two fought evenly, everyone knew that Cell was not using his full power and that made him extensively scarier seeing the main hero Goku having to struggle against that restricted power. Everything is rooted around logical conclusions about powers, so I will be focusing on making sure that fights have a sort of logical sense about them because they require it in order to immerse people. And when it proves to be a problem such as Trunks vs Broly, then do keep in mind that not every fight in this story is meant to be an immersive experience. In fact, some fights are meant to be small little snippets meant to improve the overall expectations of another, which will be addressed below somewhat here:

As long you are aware of the rules you’ve established, you should be a comfortable position for your story. You should also be weary of being too deep into power levels shenanigans and do not let it consumed the story. So far, you actually managed to keep away from the typical fanfics when it comes to power level scenario.

The problem with Dragon Ball Super is the story fails to justified the hype of battles. Zamasu Arc would more well-received if the story presentations was well executed. Yet, the writers failed at every turn of presenting a story. Imagine had the Universal Survival Arc and Zamasu Arc switched places. That would actually served a better justification for Zamasu's beef with Goku. I’m running off the mouth here and it’s a non-factor to this. I’ll discussed this in the Dragon Ball thread in a later time.

Quick fact check: SSJ Goku > 100% Freeza [150 Million to 120 Million].

Quote:Starting with the first point on its own, the only thing I do want to question specifically is that the "friend" portion of this critique is denying the relationship being established. Albeit, the intention is not to solidify that they are "best friends" or deep philosophical connections to one another, but I feel as if the last two chapters combined should have made it reasonably fair to assume that Trunks and Genn do share a friendship, regardless of how surface level/deep it is.

However, I'm assuming the real criticism surrounding this is more on the notion of Trunks stepping up in defense of Genn purely on their friendship clause, which would indeed be a problem. This portion of the story is real time based, so I wanted to use more imagery and overall escalation of argument to answer this point, where in simple terms: Trunks isn't purely fighting Vegetto on the notion that he wants to defend Genn. In fact, he is shown to be indecisive more than anything in his confusion at the damning revelation of Genn being a rapist and murderer, where even though he believes in Genn, he is calling for Vegetto to only stand down so they can examine the whole story before making a judgement to clearly indicate his stance on the matter is not solid. The only reason he actually stands against him in the fight is because Vegetto directly insults him, not only calling him an insubordinate brat but treating him like an inferior.

That is the main motivation behind his fighting, which I had planned to exposition more in the following chapter when Trunks is recovering in the hospital and recounting the fight to interested parties (aka, Kassava Tongue). The first story does, indeed, set up a little exposition for it, but this overall motivation between the two for fighting is relatively new. One of the main aspects of this story originally was going to surround the Vegetto vs Trunks philosophy, where Trunks having his timeline being ignored by Vegetto's need to improve and find a challenge was going to be the major conflict on the hero side of the story. However, given both of their warrior and developed personalities of being able to control themselves, I personally felt a hard time coming up with a way to build up this story to the point where their fight would've been deeply connecting to the audience because I don't see either of them realistically reaching a boiling point that would resonate with the audience at the climax. Even the fight itself, I felt it was more respectful to the characters to show that even when they reached a tipping point, their emotions were still somewhat repressed and neither one of them fully snapped at the other.

So, with their fight lacking in that sort of emotional turmoil from a character truly breaking down and exploding on another in dialogue, I believed it would be better suited that this fight be more of a minor issue within the Patrol, where it would be a development of character relations between the Patrol but not one of the major, deeply emotional connections the audience makes towards them. As in the end, Trunks would still recognize the need Vegetto has towards his ego needing to be checked, but still be upset over his timeline being constantly ignored throughout the time between the first and this story. Causing the issue: Trunks doesn't actually believe Vegetto is trying to belittle him, but the overall introduction of Kassava into the Patrol because he failed in giving Vegetto a challenge and Vegetto ignoring his request to stand down in regards to Genn make him have the overall "feeling" of being treated as an inferior, even though logically, he knows that Vegetto does care and is just doing what he feels he needs to get done. However, in the moment of Vegetto's weakness in his pride getting the better of him and blatantly insulting Trunks, the overall negative feelings Trunks had finally have a solid voice to back them, and that's why the two fight even though both parties knew from the start that it was wrong. Most of the major points above are established quite clearly in the chapter, but while lacking the overall depth to them some other stories focus on, I think the big problem you're referring to was in the lack of including the major clause of "Trunks acting on more complicated reason" because the exposition is coming at a later point in the story.  

In any case, I would enjoy hearing disagreement on that execution or even overall different opinions on how you would've written out to respect both characters. But even so, these two points do give me the understanding of the importance that I follow through in making sure Trunks' motivations are made quite clear when he next presents the fight as a talking point in the following chapter that presents it.

Several things highlighted in bold because it falls along with my thoughts. Lack of emotional impact is definite problem. It's not horrid, but the escalation of the two scenes became too immediate.
  • You established Trunks for the defense of Genn.
  • Then the sudden shift to the conflict between Trunks and Vegetto. 
Trunks' consideration of Genn being a friend leaves little to desire. When Vegetto confronted him, I understand Trunks' position. He has no idea what Vegetto is even taking about. Good scene.

Yet, the scene that focused on Genn is push aside in favor of Vegetto and Trunks. It came down way too fast in this scene and the dropped exposition cane with little warning. Now, there's an reason why I asked if the previous story was actually required for this one. So, I most likely have to read the first story to understand Trunks' position, since I was confused as fuck as I read that part.

Had me go

"Huh... did I miss something from the previous chapter? This is getting heavily, but I felt that I should have some prior knowledge about these two.. Trunks and Vegetto barely talk to one another that much, and we really don't have much information about the Patrol itself... Think"

Further, since this beef between the two of them is new, you need to make sure to followed up on that relationship. So, the next chapter should answered some questions of what Trunks is referring too.

When crafting a scene, you should always make sure the audience is on the same page as you. If you introduce something, you have to make sure the transition is balance. Otherwise, the pacing between scenes will not stabilized. The transition from Genn, to Vegetto's actions, to the Patrol leaves an confusion. Either I missed something from the last story or there was a lack of explanation in this one. Since there was little information regards to how the Patrol works and functions. In fact, Patrol seems to play a non-factor throughout this chapter so far. You never want to assumed that the audience are aware of how Xenoverse works. In further chapters, I advice you to leave tidbits here and there about the world you are trying to present. 

Overall, it's a good scene, but the pacing could used some work. 

Quote:That's because it actually does follow a similar path Multiverse is taking him. The overall situation of Vegetto being unquestionably superior to every other being in the universe creates the dilemma of fulfilling a challenge clause in his motivations, where he obviously lacks an opponent that gives him that sort of rush. Dragon Ball Super is also exploring this with Goku in the new arc, where one of the only character agreements I have is in his overwhelming desire to fight strong opponents getting the better of him at times and putting something at risk because of it.

Vegetto, being naturally susceptible to that same drive, then has the complexity of Vegeta's character added into the mix, where not only should their fusion naturally seek a challenge, but also seek to prove himself in the eyes of a stronger force, which drove Vegeta immensely to the point where he recognizes it as his greatest character asset. However, this is also unanswered: if he doesn't have a strong enough opponent to challenge him, then he also doesn't have a stronger opponent he can seek to prove himself against. Creating an even larger conflict in terms of motivation, and without an answer, he starts to become agitated.

Multiverse has written him out to the point where he is shown breaking down mentally over it, only recovering after small tantrums over humiliating ego points such as being easily defeated by a magician using a perceived "cheap" magic trick. My rendition will have similarities, but the main difference will be in that Multiverse Vegetto strives to not only fight all of the strongest fighters, but dominate them as well (I'm expecting him to be the villain because he snaps after having to sit through so many matches as a spectator). While this Vegetto will still maintain his extensive discipline as a warrior, yet also understand that he needs that humiliating loss for himself so that he doesn't fall victim to believing himself invincible. The notion of questioning, "Well, why doesn't he just go and get Whis/Beerus to slap him down?", is then answered in the chapter when Vegetto explains his need for a fighter to consistently give him that development, because he needs a method of developing not an objective (Think of how Goku and Vegeta see Whis and Beerus as objectives to beat, not actual rivals or characters meant to consistently develop them to achieve that objective.)

I won't explain anymore, as that would spoil important plot points to his character, but yes, he should remind you a bit of Multiverse's take on him. Just, a little bit of a different direction and not so extreme in the portrayal of his character conflicts.

Hmm. I'll withdraw my comments until I see where you go with this then. Mainly because Dragon Ball Multiverse as an whole is poorly written and poorly done. So, I have to give you the confidence to see how you developed your "vision" of how Vegetto works. 

Quote:Personally, I felt it was actually good character symbolism because when it comes to spoken words in your mind, they sometimes naturally have a tendency to follow a voice that you would expect to hear them from. IE, if you are thinking about criticism that sounds like something your mom would say, you sometimes hear her voice as the one speaking the words in your head when you actually recount the words. Where everyone's had some degree or point in time where a voice in their mind wasn't from their choice.

This is then in Vegetto, who also keep in mind, is fresh off from the first story in where he only just overcame the issue of his identity crisis surrounding the ideology that he is nothing more than a shell created by those two. So the symbolism is meant to show that a little bit as well, in the fact that he still would subconsciously think "That sounds like something Goku/Vegeta would say", instead of fully embracing it as his own personal thoughts. A small little character point, one that I was planning to exposition out a little more at a point in time where Vegetto has the chance to reflect on this conflict a little better at a different point in the story.

This was a little better received from readers who had the same understanding because they read the first story, so if you want to criticize that connection, I would suggest and seeing to whether or not this sort of connection delivers. But in regards to nitpicking, I actually don't think that's a fair term. I can definitely see how you can feel out of place without that connection, so exposition at a later time will help readers who are jumping head first into this story for sure.

I would like a little more explanation for these points though, especially the Pacing point. However, I feel as if they might be addressed a little better after the response up there. Thanks again for your feedback, let me know what your thoughts are in response to the points above! Smile

Hmm. Interesting answer. I'll withdrawn from this comment then. 

It came out a little weird, perhaps a sentence like this "Vegetto was in deep thought, imagined of how Goku and Vegeta would react" would have came off a little better. It leaves the audience to know that Vegetto still refers to them, despite being his own-self person if that's what you are aiming for.

It's no biggie. I hope it was.... "constructive enough" maybe
Reply
#5
(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Looks like you're enjoying this section! You're giving me a lot to read, boy! Pls

But of course! It wouldn't be fun any other way! Tongue

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: As long you are aware of the rules you’ve established, you should be a comfortable position for your story. You should also be weary of being too deep into power levels shenanigans and do not let it consumed the story. So far, you actually managed to keep away from the typical fanfics when it comes to power level scenario.

The goal will always be to provide depth in a fight, which can't really be done if the method of overcoming gaps in raw power is not explainable or doesn't make sense. A larger power level is a huge factor in determining a fight, but power usually only dictates who controls a fight. Not who "wins" that fight.

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: The problem with Dragon Ball Super is the story fails to justified the hype of battles. Zamasu Arc would more well-received if the story presentations was well executed. Yet, the writers failed at every turn of presenting a story. Imagine had the Universal Survival Arc and Zamasu Arc switched places. That would actually served a better justification for Zamasu's beef with Goku. I’m running off the mouth here and it’s a non-factor to this. I’ll discussed this in the Dragon Ball thread in a later time.

Well, that generally stems from the fact that they did not put anything beyond hype into their fights. Execution, story, logic, all of it played a role in the failure of the arc as a whole. But even poorly executed story build up situations could easily still lead to a worthwhile battle, case in point Super Trunks vs Perfect Cell. But because they don't have a level of logic that's worth following outside of the hype they build towards it, the last memory people have of that fight dies with the hype that naturally fades away.

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Quick fact check: SSJ Goku > 100% Freeza [150 Million to 120 Million].

I'm well aware of the Daizenshuu's analysis, but I believe this is actually a misinterpretation. Frieza had direct control in the fight for the very beginning once Goku allowed him to power up, and directly dominated him. His overall stamina and endurance, however, were inferior to Goku's, and towards the end, he started getting picked apart to the point where Goku stated he was too boring to fight anymore. If Frieza had a lower power level in that regard, then there's no logical explanation for why he was dominating the fight for the first half because a power level explains who has the raw output advantage, not who is the better overall fighter. Frieza beating Goku makes no sense because he is not the better fighter: he has never tried or training in his life, nor does he actually know martial arts or is as skilled as Goku. In fact the only reason he was even a threat was because of that overwhelming power. So if he dominated at one point in the fight, it has to be because at their starting maximums, his power level is going to be larger than Goku's. Which is how they measured those numbers from their guide to begin with.

I think it's a more sound argument to dismiss the Daizenshuu in that specific case of misinterpreting the fight rather than chalking it up to this notion of "Well it's Dragon Ball and doesn't have to always make sense." The numbers are irrelevant in determining, but there should be no logical question that Frieza had the max power advantage over Goku.

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Several things highlighted in bold because it falls along with my thoughts. Lack of emotional impact is definite problem. It's not horrid, but the escalation of the two scenes became too immediate.
  • You established Trunks for the defense of Genn.
  • Then the sudden shift to the conflict between Trunks and Vegetto. 
Trunks' consideration of Genn being a friend leaves little to desire. When Vegetto confronted him, I understand Trunks' position. He has no idea what Vegetto is even taking about. Good scene.

Yet, the scene that focused on Genn is push aside in favor of Vegetto and Trunks. It came down way too fast in this scene and the dropped exposition cane with little warning. Now, there's an reason why I asked if the previous story was actually required for this one. So, I most likely have to read the first story to understand Trunks' position, since I was confused as fuck as I read that part.

Had me go

"Huh... did I miss something from the previous chapter? This is getting heavily, but I felt that I should have some prior knowledge about these two.. Trunks and Vegetto barely talk to one another that much, and we really don't have much information about the Patrol itself... Think"

Further, since this beef between the two of them is new, you need to make sure to followed up on that relationship. So, the next chapter should answered some questions of what Trunks is referring too.

When crafting a scene, you should always make sure the audience is on the same page as you. If you introduce something, you have to make sure the transition is balance. Otherwise, the pacing between scenes will not stabilized. The transition from Genn, to Vegetto's actions, to the Patrol leaves an confusion. Either I missed something from the last story or there was a lack of explanation in this one. Since there was little information regards to how the Patrol works and functions. In fact, Patrol seems to play a non-factor throughout this chapter so far. You never want to assumed that the audience are aware of how Xenoverse works. In further chapters, I advice you to leave tidbits here and there about the world you are trying to present. 

Overall, it's a good scene, but the pacing could used some work.

I will say though that it will likely be a problem for the story as a whole then, as most of the entire villain side of the story relies on the notion that the audience is aware of the Zamasu arc and is following off of that story from Dragon Ball Super's original setting with him. In the fact that Zamasu's presence in the story is a direct tie in sequel: Whis' plan to finish off Zamasu's attempt at altering history is contracting the Patrol to take care of the new timeline Beerus created from the original Super episode when he deleted the present Zamasu. If the audience is not aware of that story or that arc, then we have a problem that in the past, you have not critiqued too heavily because you are aware of that story.

However, I can not say that I am sure the first story and second story are bridged together well, nor will I expect you to look into that. But if you do have the free time and want to read up on it, I'm sure that can give you better clarity in critique the small connections that you see in the story. Considering most of the time, there's a lot of "I haven't read the first story so I can't comment on this" tacked onto the critiques specifically regarding connection to the audience. My only other responses so far are from FF.net however, which are mostly reviewers that are going to be very easy to entertain with flashy transformations and romance pairings. So it would be nice, critiques on the first story aside, if you could see the bridges being made from the first to the second and then give a more confident response to whether or not the audience should be on the same page or not.

I also do need to spend time on building the Patrol now that there is a lull period, however, as the first story was more of a Vegetto and Trunks serving as Patrollers to the Supreme Kai. The actual Patrol did not exist until this story, where it's already an established city of participants at this stage in the overall plot. So if you do check out that story, don't expect there to be a Patrol in that one either. 

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Hmm. I'll withdraw my comments until I see where you go with this then. Mainly because Dragon Ball Multiverse as an whole is poorly written and poorly done. So, I have to give you the confidence to see how you developed your "vision" of how Vegetto works.

Yeah, I believe this one will be more of a critique that has to be answered more once the story is finished. Character development is often questionable at specific points at times, especially in regards to their overall impact on the plot and who they are as a whole. So it would be best to refrain from it unless there is an unquestionable moment like if I do write out him throwing a tantrum or acting borderline bipolar as he does in Multiverse. Which to clarify again, I don't intend to do. He has problems, but like normal people, they will not be overly zealous or based around the "have to make him mentally break down without good stimuli to show his character flaws!" type rationale.

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Hmm. Interesting answer. I'll withdrawn from this comment then. 

It came out a little weird, perhaps a sentence like this "Vegetto was in deep thought, imagined of how Goku and Vegeta would react" would have came off a little better. It leaves the audience to know that Vegetto still refers to them, despite being his own-self person if that's what you are aiming for.

It's no biggie. I hope it was.... "constructive enough" maybe

I suppose it would've been shown better character insight, but at the same time, I felt like it wouldn't make sense that way because he is focused on Genn's responses and not "what would those two do in this situation?"

Which, in all honesty as I type this, that prompt would also go against my vision for his character development because while he is still dealing with small identity issues, he is also wanting to rid himself of being a result or proxy of those two. So he wouldn't want to even think about how they would handle the situation at all: he would want to strive for his own thoughts and his own vision for himself. But at the same time, still have the problem of small little subconscious reminders of what he is and how he came to be. Creating the problem: he is personally conflicted on the notion, so his subconscious mind is playing out those two sides with those voices because they represent the type of qualities Goku and Vegeta have. Nor will he ever acknowledge them as that, but it's more of a showing that even though Vegetto is his own man, his entire baseline will always start from the combination of those two. Where he needs a little more help from outside forces if he's going to fully come to embrace the fusion as creating a whole new entity, not just blending two together.

Which also, this is something I had planned in expositioning out more once Vegetto basically has a few moments to let the audience dive into his character when training with Kassava (Now, in case you forgot, I did tell you this was going to happen in the post above I think haha). So yeah, there's that too.

And I always appreciate your feedback! I do want to make sure it's clear that when I debate the points, I do so in the pursuit of making sure I have the best foot going forward. I know at times it may seem like we're making excuses to one another, but the whole reason why it sounds like that is because out of the many problems that arise from execution of the story, it's important to focus only on the ones worth/ that need solving.
"What do you call a Vegeta and a Goku? Vegetto sounds alright." 
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#6
Never assumed what the reader(s) knows. You are responsible, in a way, to provide essential information of your story. It does not matter if the reader(s) know beforehand, you do not know. This does not translate of "treating your audience" as a pack of idiots though. With that said, I will check out the first story later on.

That's one of the problems with the fanfic as a whole. The lack of information in regards to the Time Patrol. They are suppose to have an impact to the story , but no expansion of the institution.

Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Freeza is clear in the manga. Goku completely steamrolled him. It's only the anime that tried to portray Freeza having "equal grounds" only for Goku to laughed it off. There's no misinterpretation. Don't let the anime try to deter you from this fact of how they portrayed the scene. Even then, Goku laughed off his beat-down Freeza dished out. 

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Topic: Chapter 10

This chapter felt short when compared to the others. Yet, there are still problems in this chapter that need to be brought up. Seems to be one of the weaker chapter after re-reading it multiple times.

Negatives
  • Saiyan Programs? Is this a new plot element for story?
  • Barbaric customs seems to be unfitted, even for Dragon Ball. Toriyama actually touch this in a interview.
  • Kassava being apathetic seems to be contradictory. 
First, as stated here:

"....she soon discovered the best method of stopping the pain was to no longer care about them."

Yet, in this scene from Chapter 6:

Whis shrugged his shoulders lightly, his tone still flat. "And ruin his plan? It would have worked, had you gone along with it." 

Seems that Whis should have known that no method would work, if she was truly apathetic. 
  • Genn is described as this: "Evil Warlord from shitty life and tried to rape his sister many times. But he decides to be good after enough times." His backstory is cliche and uninteresting.
  • I'm not understanding what you are trying to say here. 
  • Flashback do not reflect character development. All it does is show what they were in the past. You need actual development for the characters, in order for us to care. It still hasn't happened yet as I'm concern.
Positives:
  • You have a knack to delivered a well-written exposition in this chapter.
  • Character development, for Vegetto, is very good.
  • Pacing is much, much better than the previous chapter.
  • In turn, for the most part, execution is well-put.
Overall score of the chapter: 2.5/5
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#7
(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Never assumed what the reader(s) knows. You are responsible, in a way, to provide essential information of your story. It does not matter if the reader(s) know beforehand, you do not know. This does not translate of "treating your audience" as a pack of idiots though. With that said, I will check out the first story later on.

Right, but again, I feel as if this pertains to the notion that this is a sequel. I would like to question exactly what you feel the lines are, as there are points that can only be addressed by the development from another story, as well as some that can be independent. The Trunks vs Vegetto conflict that serves as a side thorn to the overall big plot can be argued in favor of both sides, where it may be benefitted from only the fact that someone who has read the previous installment understands while the counter argument of it being new means that it should be explained only in this story's measure, which I don't disagree. I'm just asking that for now, we take a pause on final judgement because I'd rather you examine both sides so we can make the best call here on what needs to be done.

(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: That's one of the problems with the fanfic as a whole. The lack of information in regards to the Time Patrol. They are suppose to have an impact to the story , but no expansion of the institution.

I agree, although I am finding it particularly difficult to find an opening in the immediate plot at the moment to take a diversion into the development of the Patrol a little more. The structure I have created for these next few chapters are relying on heavily developing the Kassava background, specifically not only in her development to characters apart from Genn, but also changing into something a little more than an apathetic warrior.

I suppose I'll have to work on side additions into the main plot to get the Patrol a little more spotlight. They are needed for the key final battles, however, so they do need to eventually be worked into the story.

(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Freeza is clear in the manga. Goku completely steamrolled him. It's only the anime that tried to portray Freeza having "equal grounds" only for Goku to laughed it off. There's no misinterpretation. Don't let the anime try to deter you from this fact of how they portrayed the scene. Even then, Goku laughed off his beat-down Freeza dished out.

I didn't see Goku immediately steamrolling Full Power Frieza in the manga, nor the anime. He stomped on Frieza at 1% power when he first transformed, and late into the fight when Frieza had wasted all of his energy early on in the battle. The screens here are a little out of context, but they should at least counter the notion that he was "completely steamrolled". In fact, it was pretty obvious that the new RoF movie was a complete rip off of that fight, Frieza being prone to the same constant mistake of trying to blitz Goku early and burning himself out completely by the end of the fight.

In any case, I'll be happy to continue this argument, but we are getting off track with it. So I'll leave this portion as my last retort, feel free to counter it if you like! Smile  

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(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Topic: Chapter 10

This chapter felt short when compared to the others. Yet, there are still problems in this chapter that need to be brought up. Seems to be one of the weaker chapter after re-reading it multiple times.

Negatives
  • Saiyan Programs? Is this a new plot element for story?
  • Barbaric customs seems to be unfitted, even for Dragon Ball. Toriyama actually touch this in a interview.

The Saiyan program Vegetto is referring to is the tradition of sending Saiyan babies to far off worlds to conquer. As this story required the family to mostly be together, I felt it had to incorporate a reason for why Kassava and Genn were not split at birth and sent to different worlds. This was an established Dragon Ball plot mechanic for Goku, and I won't be expanding upon it or modifying it with additional "programs" to it.

Secondly, I did read that interview. I don't actually see anything other than the fact that the low class Saiyans have some humanity to them, despite being cold hearted and of simple thought. Where Bardock, being special for "oddballing" it out and saving them, only introduces the idea that Saiyans positively respond to humanitarian good will, rather than actively seeking it out.

On the other hand, you still have the powerful rulers and overall barbaric customs of domination standing out as the conqueror way of life for the Saiyan race. A fact that Toriyama even states that the bond for Gine and Bardock is not normal, stating:

Quote:Being in among all that, I suppose you could say that the pair of Bardock and Gine were those rare Saiyans who were joined by a bond other than for reproductive purposes.

Meaning most Saiyans don't deal in romance, but know of it and engage in that sort of activity only for the prospect of reproduction. Hence the type of character that Suan and Genn are cut from: ruthless, conquerors that thrive from exploitation of that good will and abhor those common amenities added to life. The fact that Saiyans still feel those emotions should actually enhance the notion that there are some that are logically apt to commit such crimes. Bardock types would hate them for it, but it would not be something out of place for that race if they represented the darker elements of possibility in overall mindset. Genn being the example of a child raised under a true depraved individual like that.

For the Dragon Ball feel, I can easily agree that it will feel out of place and did not intend for a majority of this segment to replicate the feel. However, the importance of introducing this type of character towards the story is required for later connections, so it is necessarily dark for the effects of the story. Without adding in unnecessary details to it.


(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: [*]Kassava being apathetic seems to be contradictory. 
[/list]
First, as stated here:

"....she soon discovered the best method of stopping the pain was to no longer care about them."

Yet, in this scene from Chapter 6:

Whis shrugged his shoulders lightly, his tone still flat. "And ruin his plan? It would have worked, had you gone along with it." 

Seems that Whis should have known that no method would work, if she was truly apathetic.

I feel as if there's an error being made here, mostly in the notion that Whis is being considered as an exposition tool that is never wrong. His overall lack of connection to the gravity behind rape and its effect on a mind lead him to only see the situation for what it is: he sees a potential trigger that is regarded as forcing Kassava to make a connection to something, and juxtaposes it with death (Someone doesn't care about a goal, death threats made for not caring, suddenly the individual cares about the goal. That's the plan). Seeing it as another opportunity, he follows Genn's train of thought of ignoring all moral connection and ethos implications, and believes it would have worked despite the actual true conclusion being: "no, it wouldn't have because the logical and ethical connections combined indicate Kassava would not have snapped in the way they would have hoped for." Normally, if no opportunity presented itself, Whis would have figured nothing would have worked. But given his lack of insight into rape and him likely seeing only the possibility of forcing her to connect to something and achieve the form, he would've assumed it could be a good alternative to the death threats.

Whis, as you can tell, has also been wrong about the small details such as age of those two, let alone being a perfect guide. He serves as a very respectable figure in regards to exposition, but like the Supreme Kais commenting the fight of Vegetto vs Buuhan, they are still not perfect and can make mistakes. One of the things about Dragon Ball that I loved is in how those characters used for exposition can sometimes be off or wrong, and those elements play crucial plot points later on. Despite Super using them as constant crutches to change the story when they run into a consistency problem.

As for Kassava, she is not a completely apathetic individual in the actual story. The backstory revolved around the explanation that Kassava was at first, but formed her first connection to life in her enjoyment of working out and learning martial arts, her second connection being made in trying to save her brother when she figured out what he was. This fic relies on expanding on her struggle to develop away from being mostly apathetic, into caring about others/causes greater than herself. Where she begins as mostly apathetic, but obviously still has some minor ties such as her ego and her connection to Genn. It is impossible to be completely detached from life, where she only attempts to live that life and fails.

(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote:
  • Genn is described as this: "Evil Warlord from shitty life and tried to rape his sister many times. But he decides to be good after enough times." His backstory is cliche and uninteresting.
  • I'm not understanding what you are trying to say here. 
  • Flashback do not reflect character development. All it does is show what they were in the past. You need actual development for the characters, in order for us to care. It still hasn't happened yet as I'm concern.

Oh, the character development has yet to occur. That flashback was only meant to serve as a plot point, indicating where they were in the beginning and how they got to where they were. My next project after this fic, is actually fleshing out that story as a full fanfic on its own while I consider where to go with the main story (I originally was planning to follow the RP plots from the site here, but I can't now that I don't intend on making Kassava a secret double agent for some group of near omnipotent rulers of all existence.). The character development for them is expanding upon that backstory, where Genn's mostly coping with his attempts to do good rather than making that transition and Kassava is making more than just a couple of connections to life.

I suppose that was a little confusing, as I may have muddled my meaning earlier in some critique responses. But this chapter only meant to serve as the foundation, so the character development Genn and Kassava undergo makes sense with the outlined starting blocks this chapter gives them in their histories.

The second bullet will need some clarification: do you mean the chapter as a whole? If so, the point is mentioned in the paragraph above.

(04-11-2017, 09:34 PM)ShineCero Wrote: Positives:
  • You have a knack to delivered a well-written exposition in this chapter.
  • Character development, for Vegetto, is very good.
  • Pacing is much, much better than the previous chapter.
  • In turn, for the most part, execution is well-put.
Overall score of the chapter: 2.5/5

Thanks! Glad to hear there was a big improvement on the main points we discussed earlier, the next chapter will hopefully give you a better taste of something to criticize as I fully admit there is intended character development this time around.
"What do you call a Vegeta and a Goku? Vegetto sounds alright." 
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